First of all, I should tell you a bit about my book. I have 35 story pages, all in greyscale (including the cover- it looks like this) and I was looking to do a print run of about 300.
Anyone who just read that last sentence that knows about offset printing can already predict that I've got problems. Comics are generally printed at 32 pages. Anytime I told a printer that I wanted to print a 36 page book, they responded as if I had just ruined their day. The best they could do to try to accommodate me was offer implausible suggestions like printing the extra four pages on their own and inserting them in to the 32 page book, or bumping my page count up to 40. I was also told that greyscale might be a problem for the black and white printing press, but I'll get to that later. Onward to the phone calls.
I tried to call pretty much every printer I could, even if I was pretty sure they were too big for me, for the sakes of covering my bases and being able to offer this comprehensive report at a later date. Most of these printers names and numbers were taken from this page at Stickman Graphics, an incredibly helpful resource (to a lot of people, it looks like).
Brenner Printing & Mailing: I got a quote from these guys over email. Pretty reasonable, actually. 300 comics with 36 pages each for $950, 32 pages would have been$790. I wouldn't have been making a whole lot of money off my books at that rate, but I could have sold them for three bucks each and broken even, which is all I really care about at this point. I asked how much shipping would be, and they guessed about fifty bucks. This seems crazy low, but I guess they ship Media Mail? It seems about in that ballpark. (Phone number: 877.349.4024)
Quebecor World: These guys print most American comics from mainstream publishers. The person I spoke with at Quebecor seemed stressed out and didn't appear to care about me too much. As soon as I mentioned that my intended print run was 300, I was unceremoniously bounced to Impremere Lebonfon. After I checked the news the next day, I could see that these people has bigger problems than my small print run. (Phone number: 800.567.7070)
American Color Graphics: They are a "large web printer". What does that mean? Anyway, it was a resounding "No." (Phone number: 256.208.4497)
RR Donnelley and Sons: I spoke to someone here and was encouraged- they had a plant in Boca Raton, about four hours from me! Unfortunately, the number the woman at the main office gave me to call them was a fax number, and I didn't pursue it any further. I'm not sure they print comics anyway. (Phone number: 270.678.2121)
South Island Print Services: They're in British Columbia, and I could never seem to call during a time they were open. (Phone number: 250.656.3010)
Hebdo Litho Inc.: Although they themselves seemed surprised to find out that they could in fact print comics, 300 was too small a print run. "No." (Phone number: 514.955.5959)
Freeport Press Inc.: They don't print comics. (Phone number: 740.658.3315)
Quad/Graphics: Left a message and they never got back to me. (Phone number: 414.566.6000)
Imprimerie Lebonfon: I guess these guys used to be a part of Quebecor, and then broke away. My contact there kept asking for details one by one over email, insisting the whole time that he didn't think he had the equipment to help me. Eventually, he stopped getting back to me. You'd think they'd have some sort of a list of items they would ask you all at once when you state an interest with printing with them, but I guess not. (Phone number: 450.686.8665)
EDIT: At the time of writing this article, I missed an email from Lebonfon where they actually had sent me a price quote. Looks like I'm a big jerk! Sorry, guys. They offered to charge me around $1100 for a 1000 issue print run, and around $1,000 for both a 500 and 300 print run. Wacky!
Morgan Printing: I spoke with a pretty straightforward guy who seemed like he really wanted to work with me. He told me that 500 books would cost me $1200 and 1000 would cost me $1305. This was for 32 pages as he didn't even entertain the notion of printing 36. He quoted me the same shipping as Brenner (around $50) and said he keeps that price low through a "co-op". I don't know what that means either. (Phone number: 701.352.0640)
Town & Country Reprographics: They asked that I drop them a line over email, which I did. They emailed me back once, asking me some more questions, and after answering I never heard from 'em again. (Phone number: 603.226.2828)
Harold Bruchholz Printing Services: This was the turning point for me. I spoke to someone at this place (seems like it may have actually been "Harold", if there is one) who gave me straight answers, and helped me figure out what's best for me. (The reason he was able to do this, I suspect, was because he mentioned that he doesn't even do that much printing anymore. This wouldn't give him much of a stake in my business.) He said that he's able to compete with ComiXPress, etc. on print runs of 300-1000, but for my specific project Print On Demand would be best. He said that it would be tough for an offset printer to make black and white plates of my greyscale artwork, and that it would probably look much better on a laserjet printer (what Print On Demand uses to print their pages). (Phone number: 757.467.0763)
This was the phone call that really spelled it out: offset printing was not for me...
But before we move on, let's not forget about Port Publishing Inc.: First of all, they've kind of "gotten out of the comic printing business". But they were willing to humor me for a bit. They assumed that I was going to print on newsprint, unless I "wanted it around for posterity". But you see, there's a reason that they don't print many comics anymore... They noticed that a lot of the comics jobs they were getting were downright... pornographic. I made a serious promise to the guy that my comic was not pornographic (foolishly deciding not to mention the dog shitting scene to him). So, what was 1000 copies (their lowest print run) of my non-pornographic, newsprint comic going to cost me? $1503. If you're in the comic publishing market, I can't recommend calling this guy enough. For entertainment purposes only. (Phone number: 262.284.3494)
You may notice that it seems like I gave up on a lot of these companies pretty easily. Well, that's because I had pretty much hit a brick wall. I was talking to a lot of people who seemed like they were working with me because they had to, but knew it wasn't going to work out. Why couldn't people just tell me "No"? "Why are you calling us? Go to ComiXPress, idiot!" Would have been a great thing to hear, but no one would say it to me (except the guy at Buchholz). So I was kind of stuck, not knowing what to do. Then I asked the advice of a local acquaintance who's been in the comics field for years, Austin McKinley. I asked him what I should do, and he wrote me back a huge email with supremely helpful advice. In the end, what he had to say boiled down to this: Offset printing is a huge financial burden, which Print On Demand has lifted from the shoulders of first time self-publishers. The minuses of offset printing are huge- the large amounts of money up front, storage space and the fact that I'm not ready for a large enough print run where the numbers would balance themselves out. Print On Demand takes away all of those concerns, and my stuff might look better printed their way to boot. Also, they have no problem with my 36 page count. The only downside? A high per-unit cost.
So, I'm taking my business to Ka-Blam. I've had enough trouble ordering comics I didn't draw from ComiXPress, and Lulu is too expensive. Here's how the numbers break down for a fifty issue print run of my book (with no ads): Ka-Blam, $124. ComiXPress, $130.60. Lulu, $349.80.
But, back to my experience with offset printers. Like I said, they didn't seem to want to talk to me, but they kept putting us both through the pain of futilely continuing anyway. I felt the same sense of shame and embarrassment that I get when I'm job hunting over the phone. Why? I'm the goddamn customer here. Were these people talking to me because POD has made them desperate for business, or was it all in the name of soulless customer service? I would believe either as an explaination, except that I suspect that POD has not robbed offset of many clients, because most of the stuff that POD prints probably wouldn't be printed in a world without POD.
As far as the whole "POD not being a real way to print comics" mindset goes... I feel the same way about that attitude as I feel about people who still read printed newspapers because they "like the way they feel in their hands". I know where you're coming from, but in twenty years no one's going to know what the fuck you're even talking about.
To be continued, with... Ka-Blam!
UPDATE: There's a great discussion going on stemming from this article here at the Indie Spinner Rack boards.
Also, Tom Spurgeon was nice enough to pick up this article over at The Comics Reporter. I'm unable to link to the specific story, but here it is, reprinted for posterity:
"Go, Read: One Publisher Explores His Small-Run Offset Printing OptionsAnd Tom's right- I wrote this because when I first started trying to locate a printer, I found that there was very little info online to help me out. I hope some people find this useful!
Colin Panetta wrote in earlier this morning with a link to this post, describing in very plain language his personal exploration of printing options for a forthcoming book. I found it to be really interesting. It seems to me there used to be a lot of this kind of writing on the Internet, or at least in the back pages of Dave Sim's comics. You tend not to see it too frequently anymore, and that's probably to the creative community's detriment."
16 comments:
American Color Graphics: They are a "large web printer". What does that mean?
For what it's worth, I think in printing, a "web press" refers to a printing system where the paper is fed into the press on giant rolls of paper ("webs") that are later trimmed to size. (As opposed to "sheet-fed" systems where printing is done on one sheet of paper at a time, more like, say, how a photocopier handles paper.) Because the paper is on a roll, it can unspool much faster to feed through the printer, which means web presses are good for high-speed production of large quantities, but not at all good for short-run printing like the kind you're talking about.
At least, that's the gist as I understand things, which jibes with the reaction you got from your inquiry.
Thanks anonymous. Yeah, the previously mentioned Austin McKinley hipped me to that after I posted this. He also pointed out that it's a little "Confusing in today's parlance."
He had this to say about the other term I was confused about "Co-op": "A co-op gangs small print runs together for volume discounts." So there you go.
Hey Colin.
Flat out, the reason you were getting the brush off is that while you were a potential customer, you weren't a big enough customer. The advantages of offset printing are in the quantity, and 50-300 copies of a comic means that there's no way they can really profit from taking you on.
Further, it's pretty clear that you've no idea what you're doing. Like, at all. That's fine, everyone's gotta start somewhere. And the printers you were dealing with could've taken the time to explain things like why 36 pages doesn't work to you, but as we already mentioned they know that they can't make a profit on your project.
Simply put, they're a business, run by professionals, and you're not approaching them as a professional--because you're not. You're an artist, but as a publisher or business person you're a hobbyist, and that's not worth their time or energy. It's a bit like walking into a french restaurant demanding that they make you a California roll--that's not what they do, and you're not asking for the right thing.
I think POD is generally pretty awful for a number of reasons (the high cost-per unit, the lack of overall quality, the dillitante nature of most of the projects), but considering what you want to do and why (promote yourself at conventions, seemingly) it seems like a good fit.
But I do suggest that if you're interested in reaching a broader audience or making money off of your work, you make the investment in getting more than a few hundred copies of a book printed, and for less than $2.50 per book!
Good luck.
- Christopher Butcher, http://comics212.net
I worked as a typesetter for several publishing houses, including a small-ish one where I got to organise print runs too... all good fun and I made a few good contacts, but I still decided to go the POD route for my comic.
I started using LULU, but that turned into such a disaster – I knew my typesetting was spot on (at least technically), but they kept sending really messed up versions of my comic (pages missing, other people's work in the middle of my book) to my readers.
I would have to deal with the complaints and Lulu would just send out more copies... also messed up.
Essentially, they don't even check to make sure that they have printed them correctly.
And they're too expensive.
And even at best, their print quality is patchy, especially for greyscale.
The problem you will find with a lot of the POD services, especially in the UK, is that they use the printing services of the same business (eg. Anthony Rowe) so other than the price you pay, the product is identical.
And as for those four extra pages... I would try anything to reduce them or expand them...
Please note I'm sympathetic here!
I have to agree with Christopher here, to your typical commercial printer you are small potatoes. Even worse, any printer would peg you as a "problem" customer: a short run and low budget artist with high expectations. The ideal customer for a commercial printer is someone who buys thousands of dollars of print a month, not someone who wants to pore over paper stocks and have multiple proofs.
Many online print companies are simply brokers: they resell press time from a stable of printers. The quality usually sucks since it is secondary work and the prices are so cheap.
I'd find a local small printer/kinkos-type place and start talking. Some new laser printers can do amazing work with color and gradients, and these kinds of business are usually hungry for work. If you develop a relationship with the right person, they will go above and beyond in terms of quality and competitive price.
Hey Chris, thanks for your comment. You're right- I had no idea what I was doing. My problem is that there was no way for me to know what I was doing, which is why I wrote this article. The only way that I was "walking into a french restaurant demanding that they make [me] a California roll" is if the the restaurant had no menu, and the sign above the door simply said "food".
The reason that I wont make the investment in getting my book printed thousands of times is because I don't know if I can sell thousands of copies. This was a gamble you needed to take before POD, but now you don't. It's like self-publishing training wheels. Here's a quote from Dave Sim: "I think KaBlam and ComiXpress make a lot of sense at the next stage: which is testing the market. You're right, at the cost-per-unit, giving a store even a small discount means that you won't make any money. But it seems to me at that juncture, the point isn't to make money, the point is to find out if the book will sell. If you drop off ten copies at forty different stores and three weeks later only two of them have sold a copy, well, there's your answer.
[...]
Either one of which I really wish had been an option back in 1973 when I was starting out."
And you're both right Adam and Chris, there are a lot of problems with the quality of POD books. But I think this will all change over time as POD becomes a more substantial form of printing.
Thanks for the comments, guys!
Thanks spoppy, and you're right. I just had to do all that work to find it out!
I'm sure its totally inappropriate to respond to a thread at another forum, but over here: http://www.thecomicforums.com/forum2//index.php?s=&showtopic=128100&view=findpost&p=786412
you said that RGB is the standard for digital printing. This is totally not the case, and I'd be scared of any shop that told you it was. CMYK (Cyan Magenta Yellow and Black) are the colors used for 4 color process printing. RGB is subtractive, CMYK additive, and an RGB color will not print accurately.
If reds are that important, you might want to consider printing 2-color (black plus the pms of your choice). Of course, this puts you back in the world of offset printing, but the results can be stunning.
These guys are local to me: http://lancaster.citysearch.com/profile/8779858/york_pa/ream_printing_co_incorporated.html
and I love 'em, the prices are good and you get a for real blueline proof, which should give you the old school flavor you're looking for...
Oops! Yeah, I totally knew that, but had my acronyms mixed up. I'll go correct it over there as well. Thanks!
I've got several decades of experience in publishing, pre-press, comix, etc. No competent printer will have any problems with offset greyscale. However, the #1 source of client dissatisfaction with the above is the inappropriate execution of the images by the artist. Drawing continuous tone for offset requires some tweaking on the artist's part. If possible, find an older artist and look at his original camera-ready art, it may surprise you.
Your cover looks OK print-wise.
Your shabby treatment by printers is somewhat excused by the fact that they are frantically overworked (if they're conscientious about quality). So many clients bring in crap and expect quick fixes without charges.
Your best bet is a small printer, probably a bit older, who takes pride in his work. They are out there, just keep looking. Treat him well with perfect files and well-rendered art and he'll go the extra mile for you. The page-count issue should be pre-planned on your part, it's a waste of YOUR money.
POD is OK for a tight budget but I'd go with line-art for POD. Plus the paper's usually rubbish. Physical feel of a book is very critical sometimes.
Very best of luck, don't give up on your dream!
Hey mahendra,
Thanks for the great info and advice. Very useful stuff!
Yep, the page count thing was definitely a flub on my part. That's just where my story came in, and it seemed roughly the length of other comics I had seen, so I just went ahead with it. Now I know!
I'll always keep my options open, and I would love to find a small printer to work with. I'll have to put some more effort into discovering those types of options, but I think I'm going to go ahead with Ka-Blam first.
Thanks again!
I've used Ka-blam several times with both greyscale and color books and they look great. Not offset great, but the best digital printing I've seen. For a fold-and-staple book, I don't think any other POD outfit can beat them. Actually, I've seen Ka-Blam's perfect bound books and they look even better. I haven't had any printed yet, but soon will.
If you get to the perfect-bound graphic novel stage, Amazon's CreateSpace.com is apparently making some waves. I haven't seen any of their output yet though.
You're welcome. I hope that you'll keep us posted on your further experiences with Ka-Blam, both quality & service. I'm very curious as to their product.
In fact, it would be an interesting & useful exercise for someone to send the exact same files to all the online POD printers and then do a thorough quality survey …
Best of luck!
Thanks for the info on Ka-Blam, gregc. After writing this article, I have managed to find a good amount of first hand accounts of their service, which I think can best be summed up in this comment from "kw!" at the Indie Spinner Rack forums:
"I guess all in all, my Ka-Blam experience wasn't so great that I wanted to go shouting from the rooftops, but it wasn't so bad that I wanted to blast them on every internet forum I could find."
But yours is even more encouraging. Thanks again! And thanks for the heads up on CreateSpace.com, I hadn't heard of it before.
Will do, mahendra. And that is a great idea! If we can't do it ourselves, maybe we can get someone else to.
Hi Colin.
As a former creator and self publisher, this was an intersesting, if not unique post. Hopefully lots of aspiring creators see and can learn from your efforts.
Your experience is very familiar to me, having gone through it personally and as a retailer reliving it almost daily with many newcomers looking to do the same thing.
The answer to your problems really come down to one or two things. First and foremost is Why are you publishing this work?
Is this a commercial venture, meaning why are you creating an item to sell, when you could simply post it online for free?
If this is a commercial venture, where your goal is to actually make a few bucks on your effort, why are you in such a hurry to print, now, especially when you've admitted that you haven't done all of your homework yet? Don't be in such a hurry.
Here's some basic facts.
A 36 page book is not a problem. You say you have 35 pages + a cover with no ads. This is perfect as a traditonal 32 page comic is really 36 pages! 32 interior pages + a cover (4 more pages). In this case your first and last 2 pages can be printed on the inside front, inside back and back covers.
BUT... with a little effort you might be able to sell ads to sympathetic friends or businesses at maybe $100-$150/pg. Go 40 or better 48 pages to accomodate thos ads and you could cover most/all of a 1,000 copy print run without selling a copy.
Besides if you can manage to sell 300 copies of a POD book, which will eventually cost $744 through Ka-Blam, why not print 1,000 through Brenner (who did a great job on my gray-scale book) for $790 with an opportunity do a lot better than break even?
Also 1,000 copies is only 4 smallish boxes so no real space problem, even if you live in a studio apartment.
Ultimately, making this a successful effort both commercially and artistically, comes down to you meeting all of your responsibilities. Your responsibility to your work doesn't end with printing it, especially when you are self publishing.
You need to create demand for your work and this goes way beyond an artist alley table at a con. Fortunately if you are serious about pushing your book, 1,000 copies gives you an opportunity to give samples to folks who can review/promote your work and even let you leave consignment copies with local retailers.
Yeah, it is work, hard work but the upside is pretty cool. And like I said, if it's not commercial, go ahead and run your 50 copies, just because, and post it on the web for free for everyone else. Who knows, if you can work the web well, you might be able to generate enough interest to do a larger run later.
Thanks for the comments, comikaze.
You're making quite a few assumptions about my intention for my comic book, and then giving me advice on what I should do based on them. Your ideas make sense from a business perspective, but don't really jibe with my idea of what my book should be. I don't want paid ads in the printed book and don't want to be an ad salesman, I don't want the story to run onto the back cover because I think it would be distracting and I don't want 1,000 copies of the book because I don't know if I can/don't want to be pressured to sell them.
Also, I wasn't nearly as worried about the space that the boxes would take up as the guilt that I would feel if I were unable to unload them! They would be like a physical manifestation of my guilt, ironically shoved in the back of my closet.
The "Why are you doing this?" question is a great one, and not something that would have occurred to me to ask when I was first trying to figure this out. I've heard it from a few people now, and I think it's the number one question you need to ask.
For me, the answer is that this project is mostly about me dipping my foot in the pool. I want to promote it myself online and see how many copies I can sell. I want to see how many comic shops I can call and get it into. As I said somewhere above, this is meant to be my self-publishing "training wheels". If this goes well, then I'll graduate to a 1,000 print run.
And hey, who said I was in a hurry? I made these calls in January, and am just now getting back to figuring out how I'm going to do this. Yeah, I need to do my homework, but isn't that what I'm doing right now?
Thanks again, comikaze.
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